Townhall.com: Justice blocks names in gay rights ballot measure
Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy has temporarily blocked Washington state officials from releasing the names of people who signed a ballot measure on gay rights.
Kennedy's ruling Monday temporarily blocks a federal appeals court ruling last week that ordered the release of the names. Kennedy said his order would remain in effect while he considers a request by a group, Protect Marriage Washington, to reverse the appeals court ruling.
The case involves Referendum 71, a ballot initiative that asks Washington voters to approve or reject the state's "everything but marriage" law, which grants registered domestic partners the same legal rights as married heterosexuals.
Protect Marriage Washington circulated a petition to put the domestic partnership law before the voters. Under the Washington state constitution, voters have the power to reject any law through the referendum process.
In September, U.S. District Judge Benjamin Settle temporarily barred state officials from releasing the identities of those who signed the referendum petitions. Settle held that releasing the names could chill the First Amendment rights of petition signers.
Gay rights supporters and open-government groups sought to disclose the names, saying that signers should be identified so the public knows who is behind Referendum 71.
Read it all at Townhall.com.
Ironic, isn't it, that I'm the FIRST on the post-Adriana Lima thread.
ReplyDeleteThis is an interesting question.
ReplyDeleteI can see where it would discourage people from signing a politically incorrect question like this because it could jeopardize their employment as well as create other problems.
It certainly could be a problem for high-profile people, like the owners of stores - they'd get protested and boycotted by the gay rights people.
But it could also cause problems for others. For example, if a gay person found a co-worker he or she didn't like was on the list, they could claim it made for a hostile workplace and get the signer fired.
Normally, I'd say go ahead, make the names public, but in this polarized age, where there will be calls for protests and boycotts over even a perceived slight, I can see the reasons to keep it private.
And it is a boxing glove with wrinkles to look like a brain.
: )
ReplyDeleteInteresting issue. I frankly have to mull it over a bit. I can see the "chilling" argument, but on the other hand, one can argue that a signer of a (public) petition is implicitly waiving his/her right to anonymity.
ReplyDeleteOne thing for sure; in retrospect, Van Jones sure wishes his name had been kept confidential on one particular petition.
Kosh, I'm on my desktop. I just threw my laptop out the window. ; )
ReplyDeleteI was just about to type an answer when I paused to read the above entries, and realized Kosh's Shadow already posted my exact thoughts!
ReplyDeleteThe question I have to ask is, are other petitions made public? I can definitely see issues though with the groups that want to see the names on this one. They seem to do a lot of bullying when they don't get their way.
ReplyDeleteIf you sign something, it usually means you agree. On the other hand,I have signed petitions to allow a guy from the Communist Party to run for President. Why not release the names? Release them all....see how many Mickey Mouse's, Jack Meoff's and John Galt's show up.
ReplyDeleteC&2; you said you'd throw it out if OR, or buzzsawmonkey, I don't remember which, said that it looks like a boxing glove, not me.
ReplyDeleteMy initial reaction is that if this is a push to get a public law passed, or revoked, the process should be open. The chilling effect exposure may have on future participation in public political process probably exists but, the converse, keeping parts of that process secret, seems to be an affront to our political sytem (as it is supposed to be practiced)
ReplyDeleteA potential problem with the petitions being kept confidential; if the petition has a legal effect (e.g., you need X number of signers, then under state law the issue is brought to referendum), who is checking that the petition signatures aren't fraudulent?
ReplyDeleteRevealing the names on this petition is tantamount to forcing people to reveal how they will vote on the issue.
ReplyDeleteThis is your boxing glove . . .
ReplyDeleteTHIS is your boxing glove on Stars and Stripes . . .
SoBD - Couldn't you say that for every referendum?
ReplyDeleteyou said you'd throw it out if OR, or buzzsawmonkey, I don't remember which, said that it looks like a boxing glove,
ReplyDeleteBoxing glove? No, I see... two elephants, making love to a mens' glee club.
/hat tip: Woody Allen
Desert Dog, I don't mind if the signers for putting a candidate on the ballot were made public. That might be polarizing, but it is easy to make the argument you made.
ReplyDeleteI'd sign and have signed for candidates even if I didn't think I'd vote for them, because I think we should have choices at the polls.
This one, though, is a bigger problem.
An alternative would be to make illegal taking any action based on the contents of the list, and allow those on the list to sue those who organize boycotts, etc. But that could be hard to prove, and even harder to collect damages.
Gay rights supporters and open-government groups sought to disclose the names, saying that signers should be identified so the public knows who is behind Referendum 71.
ReplyDeleteAren't those who are behind Referendum 71 perfectly capable of saying so themselves?
OR, the signatures can be verified without making them generally accessible, and letting them be public hasn't prevented fraud, either.
ReplyDeleteAn alternative would be to make illegal taking any action based on the contents of the list, and allow those on the list to sue those who organize boycotts, etc. But that could be hard to prove, and even harder to collect damages
ReplyDeleteEr... also, it would almost certainly violate the 1st Amendment.
Good points, Kosh. A slippery slope
ReplyDeleteCouldn't you say that for every referendum?
ReplyDeleteYes - which I'd agree with. It is one thing for state officials to verify the names, and quite another to make them public. I know that in my neighborhood, in my town, my cars and house would be vandalized if I signed this petition.
The clear intent of the push to have the signers of the prop 71 petition revealed is to expose and subject them to threat of harassment.
ReplyDeleteIf this issue had come up over something less controversial, I would have had no problem with it.
Now I have doubts.
The state election commission can check for fraud without publicizing individual's names.
ReplyDeleteI'm all for open disclosure of funding data, whether individual or organizational, but not of signatories to ballot iniatives. Like SOBDog, I think that's too close to a violation of the secret ballot.
I never expected privacy when signing a petition. At the very least, everyone who signs it after me sees my name.
ReplyDeleteDuring the aftermath of Prop 8, there were maps online pinpointing the locations of the homes of people who had donated to the campaign. And in Seattle just last year, addresses of Mercer Island homeowners with McCain signs in their yards were published on a local paper's site (The Stranger - a more-or-less alternative/progressive paper) with a clear intent to suggest those homeowners should be intimidated.
ReplyDeletePretty disturbing stuff. Has this always been a problem? I don't remember hearing about it in the past.
If that's a brain, it's not a very smart one. The more wrinkly the brain, the smarter the owner.
ReplyDeleteAs to the question at hand: Kosh's Shadow pretty much nailed it. Signing a petition implicitly waives your right of anonymity to those with a legitimate interest in knowing your identity - the board of elections or whoever it is that examines petitions and must confirm each signature is legitimate.
In this particular case, the groups that want the names revealed have openly stated their intent to harass those individuals. Libs and journalists (same thing, I know) are constantly whining about the "chilling effect" of this or that ruling they don't approve of. This would drop participation in the petition process to Antarctic levels.
DD, OR,
ReplyDeleteR-71 in WA is a Referendum, that is the people (registered voters) have asked to vote on legislation passed in the Legisature.
WA also has intiatives, which is a law generated at the grass roots level.
Both require signatories to be registered voters and the number of valid signatures required is a percentage of the on the number of voters in the last elections. Referendum has a lower threshold than an initative.
When the sponsors of the Referendum or Initiative think they have enough signatures, and by a deadline for the next election. The present the signatures to the Sec. States office for validation.
The Sec. State then examitions all the collected signatures. First they count the total number of signatures presented, in general in WA you need about 20% more than the threshold to overcome invalid signatures.
If there is the threshold plus the 20% or so, then they do a statistical sample of signatures to determine the percentage of valid ones. This varies depending on who's done the collecting. They apply the statsical model to the whole lot and if the threshold is met then the Referendum or Initative is validated.
If it's not met if the sponsors pay for it, the Sec. State will validate every signature.
R-71 was deemed valid by the Sec. State. with enought valid signatures to met the threshold for this election.
In any event, even *I* agree that it's good that C2 branch out from the prior Adriana Lima thread, to explore other topics.
ReplyDeleteSuch as, for instance, Alessandra Ambrosio:
http://alessandracentral.com/
Kosh's Shadow said...
ReplyDeleteExcellent.
Releasing the names is a potential safety issue for the signers.
I have an expectation of privacy, especially on public issues with such emotion attached, to not have people knocking on my door with a baseball bat.
Pretty disturbing stuff. Has this always been a problem? I don't remember hearing about it in the past.
ReplyDeleteI think it goes to the bumper sticker effect.
Democrats are not at all worried that some angry Republican will come by and key their Volvo with its fifty Democrat-cause stickers on it.
For Republicans, it is a real concern.
If you had a nice, expensive car, would you be afraid that someone would vandalize it if you had a Pro-Republican bumper-sticker on it?
Thank you, JCM. That would seem to strengthen the case for keeping the signatures non-public.
ReplyDeleteThe right to a secret ballet is a fundamental right of a free & democratic society. Take away that right and would be tyrants will examine how the people vote enabling coercion and leading to tyranny.
ReplyDeleteEqually important is the need to safeguard the legitimacy of the voting process. Voting is restricted to adult citizens who can prove who they are and that they have a right to vote in a given jurisdiction.
The petition process, the purpose of which is to place issues on the ballot for consideration of the voters is a tool for bringing about change in public policy. The system is open to abuse if political action committees can cook up a petition with phoney names. Keeping the names of petitioners secret makes it impossible to determine the validity of a given petition.
THe fear in this case is that the political action committee against the petition would use those names to bring about pressure or intimidation against those who exercised their democratic right to sign the petition.
Should we err on the side of caution and allow for secret petitions, and thereby permit the abuse of the entire petition process? Or do we err on the side of courage and ensure the validity of the system of petitioning? Decency & the rule of law should be sufficient to protect petitioners from undue intimidation or harassment.
To keep the names secret undermines the validity of the entire petitioning process, on this or any other issue.
And in Seattle just last year, addresses of Mercer Island homeowners with McCain signs
ReplyDeleteAnd I didn't think putting up a McCain-Palin sign in my yard was worth a key down the side of my car, either.
/liberals are soooo tolerant
to not have people knocking on my door with a baseball bat.
ReplyDeleteWhy would someone bring a baseball bat to a gunfight like that?
/
There is a guy near Seattle, who flies the American flag, and often a Israeli flag, or a Armed Forces flag. He puts up yard signs for conservative candidates and causes.
ReplyDeleteHis property has been the target of vandalism a number of times.
Thomas Paine.
ReplyDeleteTIME
&
SPACE,
R
Syrah, that's why my wife wouldn't let me put a McCain sticker on my car.
ReplyDeleteSquatch:
ReplyDeleteI don't know, but I am not sure that you DO have an expectation of privacy when signing something that will, or could ultimately become public law.
Whenever I am approached to sign a petition, I automatically think: "What is this organization going to do with this?" Usually it is to gain publicity for their cause (which is why I do not sign petitions). They go and trumpet how many signatures they have, etc.
Kosh, I'm on my desktop. I just threw my laptop out the window. ; )
ReplyDeleteLOL, CC you need to run a poll to find out how many of us dudes see a boxing glove in that image. Seriously, it was the first thing that came to my mind when I first saw it.
On the one hand: It is noxious to keep the names secret on the grounds that the whole purpose of signing a petition is to participate in some way in public discourse.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand: Based on the behavior of gay-marriage advocates in California after the last election, and the personal harassment to which they subjected people, there is reason to be concerned.
Petitions based on "secret signatures" are antithetical to the whole idea of referendum as an act by the public. But the awareness that harassment of a serious nature could result if the names were made public denies people their right to aid in getting a ballot initiative entered.
It's a poser. In the meantime, I think it worthwhile noting that while the proponents of same-sex marriage, and gay rights generally, are proceeding under the mantle of rhetoric which claims discrimination and harassment, it is they who are recorded as having engaged in discrimination and harassment towards those who disagree with them, to the point of chilling their rights.
Why would someone bring a baseball bat to a gunfight like that?
ReplyDeleteGood point.
Well said Kenneth. Their are consequences for standing up for what you believe, whether that is putting a McCain sign in your yard, or signing a petition.
ReplyDeleteKenneth said...
ReplyDeleteThe right to a secret ballet is a fundamental right of a free & democratic society.
A Stealth Swan Lake?
A Nondisclosure Nutcracker?
Cinderella Confidential?
/
Here's the story...
ReplyDelete'I Want To Make Sure That They Know I Can't Be Pushed Around'
Ken Potts calls himself a patriot. That's what his front yard tells you too.
Metal American flags are staked in the ivy beside the driveway. A red, white, and blue pinwheel spins near the front sidewalk. One flagpole flies the American flag. A second flagpole carries the banner of the Army's 101st Airborne.
Even his mailbox on North 185th Street in Shoreline sports the image of the Airborne's screaming eagle.
But he says that in the last year the mailbox has been blown up twice with fireworks. The house has been egged. Paint has been thrown on the house too. The flags have been torn down and ripped up more than once.
And the 101st Airborne flag has had the word "murder" and a swastika written on it with a permanent marker.
"It's really difficult for me to see something like this and not feel sad," Potts told us of the vandalism that started around election day last year. Especially, he says, since the 101st led the charge in World War II to defeat Nazi Germany.
But the biggest insult to this house with a permanent Bush-Cheney placard attached to the second story and a collection of mostly Republican election signs in the side yard, is the spray paint someone left on his vinyl siding this past weekend.
I drive by Mr. Pott's home every day.
C&2; you said you'd throw it out if OR, or buzzsawmonkey, I don't remember which, said that it looks like a boxing glove, not me.
ReplyDeleteI just figured buzz would be the first one to point it out (since he was the first to point out the chocolate covered finial), but since the photographer named this one "American Brain", I'm still holding out hope that I'm right just this once. : )
Kenneth, time has shown that most people just don't usually have that kind of courage. And it is one thing to risk harassment to protest real discrimination; it is something else to risk losing one's business or livelihood over principles.
ReplyDeleteI'd probably be intimidated from signing petitions if I thought they'd result in losing my job or business, unless they were to save others' lives.
Kosh, your wife is wise. As I've often said, I'm quite happy to walk around with conservative-message T-shirts, but I will not put a conservative bumper sticker on my car. I can defend myself; my car can't.
ReplyDeleteOR enough with your imperialist spelling hegemony!
ReplyDeleteCC: I think we must think outside the box(ing glove).
ReplyDeleteCC: It is the smooth brain of a patriotic professional boxer.
ReplyDeletePatriotic Boxer
ReplyDeleteKosh,
ReplyDeleteThe vetting process described by JCM is designed to protect both the safety of the petitioners and the validity of the petition process. If such a procedure is followed, then the public can be reasonably confident that the process is legitimate.
What is clear, is that the people who want the names released are doing so to intimidate the petitioners.
CC: I think we must think outside the box(ing glove).
ReplyDeleteThere you are, finial-outer! ; )
For my self, I don't give a rats ass if my name on the R-71 is made publi.
ReplyDeleteIt's there. I signed it.
Some body wants to make an issue of it?
They're welcome to try. I've backed punks from SEIU and Teamsters off.
Go ahead, make my day.
That said, given the current climate, especially for folks on the right in blue country, there is an argument for privacy.
In WA Sec. State Sam Reed is a good guy, his department along with the Auditor Brain Sonntag run the ONLY functioning branches of government.
When the Sec. State validates a Referendum or Initative, I have a high degree of confidence in it.
RedState: Ivan Drago sure learned not to fuck with the Patriotic Boxer
ReplyDeleteAs long as there is an election commission to verify the authenticity of the names, I can see NO reason for making the names public.
ReplyDeleteIf you argue that secrecy in this case is somehow inconsistent with participation in public decision-making, you might as well apply the same reasoning to voting.
Patriotic Boxer
ReplyDeleteCC: It is the smooth brain of a patriotic professional boxer.
ReplyDeleteIt's a REAL BRAIN???!!! : )
Their are consequences for standing up for what you believe, whether that is putting a McCain sign in your yard, or signing a petition.
ReplyDeleteIn my town, in 2004 there were multiple incidents of vandalism at houses where there were Bush-Cheney signs in the yard. Naturally, no perps were caught, or even identified. Participation in the political process should not result in one becoming the target of violence. That's Brownshirt behavior, and the state should not enable it by publicly identifying supporters - or opponents - of any particular measure.
Would anyone's opinion change it it was ACORN running the petition? Serious question.
ReplyDeleteKenneth,
ReplyDeleteWhat is clear, is that the people who want the names released are doing so to intimidate the petitioners.
In this specific case that is clearly an intent.
This Referendum had a narrow validation margin. However given the nature of signature gathers it had a low invalidation rate.
I think the artist painted a boxing glove to look like a brain, and maybe was making a statement about American violence.
ReplyDelete"Brain, brain, what is brain?!"
ReplyDeleteuh...
ReplyDeleteMy Lightning was keyed a few years ago (04 05? I forget...) for having an American flag sticker on the back window. So said the teenager who got caught doing it in broad daylight. The only other sticker on the truck at the time was from an obscure one man Swedish death metal band (Bathory).
Who decides what (and whom) is conservative and what (and whom) is not?
=
Whom? Who? Did I get that right?
HORTON,
R
Origin of Specious said...
ReplyDeleteWould anyone's opinion change it it was ACORN running the petition? Serious question.
In WA State, no.
Because as I said above the Sec. State does a good job on validating Refenedum and Intiatives.
CC: is my monitor the only one dripping brain juice? I thought that was some cool new blogging thing. Damn Dybbuk!
ReplyDeleteOrigin of Specious said...
ReplyDeleteWould anyone's opinion change it it was ACORN running the petition? Serious question.
When was the last time a conservative keyed a car with a democratic sticker on it? How often has members of the Republican party harrassed their opponents? As well, how often do Republicans demand to see something validated in this fashion?
Corre∫pondence Committee said...
ReplyDeleteCC: It is the smooth brain of a patriotic professional boxer.
It's a REAL BRAIN???!!! : )
Belonged to someone named Abby.......
SoBD: I agree that one should not be targeted for their political views. My Rep's kid slashed tires on vans hird by the GOP to drive people to the polls. It is a travesty. However, the answer is to deal with the thugs, not the process.
ReplyDeleteOrigin of Specious said...
ReplyDeleteWould anyone's opinion change it it was ACORN running the petition? Serious question.
That thought occurred to me, too.
I can really see the arguments on both sides of this issue.
JCM, while it may be that the current Sec/State of WA is trusthworthy, what happens when the next one is a partisan political hack? That's the problem.
JCM: LOL. I love Marty Feldman.
ReplyDeletePP: I am with you, but we cannot make one set of laws for Republicans, and another for Democrats.
ReplyDeleteTargeting the "opposition" at their homes got a shot of respectability when Wee Wee & Co. sent those busloads of Acorn-ers out to those executive's homes back during the "bonus" fiasco. I have no doubt that some loony fringe-dwellers would use access to the names in order to harass signatories.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I believe they should be made public. In fact, I'm surprised that such petitions aren't already subject to FOIA requests like most documents (or are they covered? I didn't see FOIA mentioned anywhere).
Anyone who uses the info. on the petition to commit a crime should be punished to the full extent of the law.
I would certainly never key a car or otherwise vandalize property bearing a political message I disagree with. I have, though, cheerfully torn down countless "International ANSWER" posters around the DC area. They're defacing public property to begin with, with their Marxist propaganda; I'm happy to un-deface it.
ReplyDeleteMy Rep's kid slashed tires on vans hird by the GOP to drive people to the polls.
ReplyDeleteI remember that. After that I switched my voter registration from Democrat to Independent.
OR,
ReplyDeleteJCM, while it may be that the current Sec/State of WA is trusthworthy, what happens when the next one is a partisan political hack? That's the problem.
'zactly.
It was King Co. elections that caused the trouble in '04. Sam Reed's authority to step in was limited. He was highly critcal of the King Co. process.
Ideally the process should be open.
Given the reality on the ground, and the propensity of the left to engage in intimidation or worse, the situation is less than ideal.
I'm torn on this. I live in blue country. I can be tough on people who are not blue.
It's a poser. In the meantime, I think it worthwhile noting that while the proponents of same-sex marriage, and gay rights generally, are proceeding under the mantle of rhetoric which claims discrimination and harassment, it is they who are recorded as having engaged in discrimination and harassment towards those who disagree with them, to the point of chilling their rights.
ReplyDeleteMost of Washington state would probably be all right, but I could see this being a real problem in Seattle. I haven't signed any petitions recently, but if my name and address were on something like this, it would worry me. I don't put bumper stickers on my cars (what would happen is just too predictable), and I've had campaign signs stolen, or torn up and left in my yard...and I live in one of the more conservative areas of the Puget Sound region.
Many of the people on the left in this area seem to have no regard - really, none - for a conservative's opinion or property. It's pretty alarming, really.
They seem to think they need to "KILL THE HATERS". : )
I am an adjunct (non-tenured, part-time)college teacher. I am hired on a year-by-year basis. If I signed such a petition, I would lose my job. Period.
ReplyDelete(Well, okay, I'm funemployed right now anyway, but that's a recession story!)
There is no reason to make the names public EXCEPT to intimidate, or, as some have put it, to make conservatives show their courage.
Phooey.
Anyone who uses the info. on the petition to commit a crime should be punished to the full extent of the law.
ReplyDeleteThat would be nice.
Whatever happened to that operative in Ohio who outed JtP's info ?
OR: Well that's where I guess most of us differ from the left. I will see posters like that in certain areas. Only thing I will do is take pictures of them. As far as I am concerned they can waste their money like that all they want.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the answer is to deal with the thugs, not the process.
ReplyDeleteSomehow, when it's rabid leftist on conservative violence, the thugs almost never get caught. If this petition had been in my state, and I had signed it, I can guarantee you that I would have a problem, and it would be more than one thing, it would be on-going, and some of it would be serious, to the point where I would probably have to move.
Out of fear of retaliation, I would not have signed the petition, thus being denied, by threat of violence, my right to participate in the political process.
If people out of work during the Obama Recession are "funemployed"; if things get much worse for them, will the MSM describe them as "fungry"?
ReplyDelete/
SoBD: Again, I do not disagree with anything you are saying. However, do you trust that the same thugs whom you assume (rightly) would harras you, would not try to game the system if it were "secret.?"
ReplyDeleteWell my relief is here and it's time to go home. See you all later on maybe.
ReplyDelete/*poof*
Phil, they have, literally and figuratively, no right to put the posters up on public property to begin with. It's the equivalent of graffiti. I'm not trampling their "rights" in any way by pulling them down. And in this case, we're dealing with a group of, literally, Stalinists, note merely "liberals". I pull down their posters with the same amount of conviction that I would those of neo-Nazis.
ReplyDeleteMy Rep's kid slashed tires on vans hird by the GOP to drive people to the polls.
ReplyDeleteAnd what kind of punishment did the kid ultimately get?
Something serious, or just a slap on the wrist?
OR: Probably if their diet only consisted of Funyans
ReplyDeleteOR, that was funworthy of a man of your intelligence!
ReplyDeleteAnd when they finally succumb to funger, we have to call the fundertaker.
ReplyDeleteSoBD:
ReplyDeleteMen Get Jail Time In Milwaukee Tire-Slashing Case (Milwaukee 4)
wfrv.com/AP ^ | April 24, 2006 | Gretchen Ehlke
Posted on 04/26/2006 11:46:03 AM PDT by prairiebreeze
(AP) MILWAUKEE Four Democratic presidential campaign workers were sentenced to jail time ranging from four months to six months Wednesday for puncturing the tires of Republican vehicles on Election Day 2004.
The men had pleaded no contest in January to misdemeanor property damage. A fifth worker was found not guilty.
Those who pleaded no contest were Sowande A. Omokunde, the son of Democratic U.S. Rep. Gwen Moore, D-Milwaukee; Michael Pratt, the son of former acting Milwaukee Mayor Marvin Pratt; and Lewis Caldwell and Lavelle Mohammad, both from Milwaukee.
They originally were charged with felony property damage but accepted plea deals on the lesser charge.
Milwaukee County Circuit Judge Michael Brennan rejected prosecutors' recommendation of probation and no jail time.
"This case had to be a public example of what can happen when you interfere with voters' rights," Brennan said. The men faced a maximum nine-month jail term and fines of $10,000.
Congresswoman Moore said, "I love my son very much. I'm very proud of him. He's accepted responsibility."
The state Republican Party had rented more than 100 vehicles that were parked in a lot next to a Bush-Cheney campaign office to give rides to voters and poll monitors on Nov. 2, 2004. The vandalism caused some delays in the GOP's Election Day work as party workers rounded up different vehicles.
Democrat John Kerry won Wisconsin's 10 electoral votes in a close race.
Omokunde was sentenced to four months, Mohammad to five months and Caldwell and Pratt to six months. All were granted work-release privileges.
Brennan also ordered them to pay a $1,000 fine each, in addition to the $5,317 in total restitution ordered earlier.
Justin Howell was the only one who did not take part in the plea deal, and jurors found him not guilty.
Origin of Specious said...
ReplyDeleteOR: Probably if their diet only consisted of Funyans
Kosh's Shadow says -
Or fungus.
Speaking of the cruel oppression and degradation of minorities, how come there's a little trashcan by my posts? Huh? Nobody else has one. A little white trashcan. OBVIOUSLY a racist slur directed at posters from Appalachia. I am deeeeeeeeeeply offended.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of petitions, check out the MoveOn .org crowd's latest pet project. At Michelle Malkin. (I can't link.)
ReplyDeleteBut OR, don't you know, "progressives" consider all property is theft anyway. So what you call defacing so-called private property is really liberating it from capitalist hegemony.
ReplyDeleteSoBD: I consider this a slap on the wrist, but I appreciate that Judge Brennan did not take the prosecutors suggestion. What we need is a statute specifically targeting this type of behavior, with stiffer penalties. The Judge seemed to have done a pretty good job with the little with which he had to work.
ReplyDeleteFour Democratic presidential campaign workers were sentenced to jail time ranging from four months to six months Wednesday for puncturing the tires of Republican vehicles on Election Day 2004.
ReplyDeleteSweet! Unusual, in that these clowns were caught, but at least they got a meaningful punishment. And one of them was the son of a Rep.(D), too! Double sweet!
Apropos of nothing: Does anyone know where "Peacekeeper" of LGF yore is hanging out in the blogosphere these days? (If anywhere.)
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of the cruel oppression and degradation of minorities, how come there's a little trashcan by my posts? Huh? Nobody else has one. A little white trashcan. OBVIOUSLY a racist slur directed at posters from Appalachia. I am deeeeeeeeeeply offended.
ReplyDeleteWow! I'm from Appalacia, too!
OMG!!!!! You're my sister!!!!
Hey, baby. You're hot. ;)
Apropos of nothing: Does anyone know where "Peacekeeper" of LGF yore is hanging out in the blogosphere these days? (If anywhere.)
ReplyDeleteAint' seen neither hide nor hair of him.
wolfie said...
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of the cruel oppression and degradation of minorities, how come there's a little trashcan by my posts? Huh? Nobody else has one. A little white trashcan. OBVIOUSLY a racist slur directed at posters from Appalachia. I am deeeeeeeeeeply offended.
You can delete your own posts.....
OR, I have seen PK at Babba's from time to time.
ReplyDeleteA little white trashcan. OBVIOUSLY a racist slur directed at posters from Appalachia. I am deeeeeeeeeeply offended.
ReplyDeleteLOL (Maybe I should see if Bare can replace that image with a recycling bin.)
Hi, wolfie! I haven't seen you here before. Sorry about your funemployment.
ReplyDeleteRunning Bare--- Darling!
ReplyDeleteAh, that's right, I'd heard that. Thanks, wolfie.
ReplyDeleteCC: You could sell the recycled characters back to blogspot, or trade another blog for some character credits.
ReplyDeleteRunning Bare
ReplyDeleteWow! I'm from Appalacia, too!
OMG!!!!! You're my sister!!!!
Hey, baby. You're hot. ;)
Congratulations you broke in my new monitors!
First spew all over them....
LMAO!
Running Bare said...
ReplyDeleteWow! I'm from Appalacia, too!
OMG!!!!! You're my sister!!!!
And I'm my own Grandpa
//////
OR
ReplyDeleteI was wondering that also. I have seen Dirk Diggler over on Spitfire Murphy.
Lincolntf:
ReplyDeleteHere is a link to the Malkin article: Move On demands that Democrats stay off FOX News.
OR: PK last seen on BabbaZee's Enraged Spleen.
ReplyDeleteDETAILED
FILES,
R
Origin - I think 4-6 mos., even on work release is meaningful, for a vandalism offense.
ReplyDeleteRe your comment on gaming the system. If the Sec of State (or whoever) does a proper job of vetting the signatures, I think the chance of successfully gaming the petition process is pretty low. It isn't necessary for the signatures to be public.
Oops - Bernard Kerik sent to jail.
ReplyDeleteA federal judge on Tuesday revoked bail for Bernard B. Kerik, the former New York police commissioner who is facing conspiracy and fraud charges.
Judge Stephen C. Robinson of Federal District Court in White Plains said Mr. Kerik could not be trusted to honor the consent order that prohibits any involved party from revealing confidential information pertinent to the coming trial.
Mr. Kerik had been allowed to remain free on $500,000 bail, which was secured by his house in New Jersey. The judge turned down a request by Mr. Kerik’s lawyers to keep him from being put behind bars for 48 hours while they prepare an appeal.
Before revoking the bail of Mr. Kerik, Judge Robinson described him as a “toxic combination of self-minded focus and arrogance, and I fear that combination leads him to believe his ends justify his means.”
“He sees the court’s rulings as an inconvenience,” Judge Robinson said, “something to be ignored, and an obstacle to be circumvented.”
-Vetting seems to be a problem for anyone in Washington.
CC: You could sell the recycled characters back to blogspot, or trade another blog for some character credits.
ReplyDeleteLMAO - THEN I could finally sleep at night, Origin! THANK you! Ahahahaha.
Okay, I just saw him at BZ's place, and he was asking if Yiddish and Hebrew are the same. BZ's probably got him out in the woodshed for a spanking even as we speak.
ReplyDeleteJCM- Ah. So THAT'S what it is! Nice!
ReplyDeleteDoppelganglander- Nice to see you!
As for the funemployment, I can't complain much, given that I'm not the primary breadwinner in the family. Mr. Wolf's job is pretty secure, thank heaven.
Does anybody want to check all these employment references for me? I swear...1 truckdriver = 10 jobs in 10 years.
ReplyDeleteSoBD - It is for vandalism. That would cover me keying your car. But what about attempting to interfere with an election? That is why I would like to see election-specific statutes.
ReplyDeleteRender: Maybe if he got off, her spleen would no longer be enlarged?/
ReplyDeleteMr. Wolf's job is pretty secure, thank heaven.
ReplyDeleteLots of messy crime scenes out there needing quick, discreet cleanup?
/Pulp Fiction reference
Corre∫pondence Committee said...
ReplyDeleteTheir rationale is so patently absurd that I almost suspect a hoax.
I can only hope that some of the dimwitted "moderates" who supported Obama/pay attention to MoveOn are beginning to see the pattern.
Origin - agreed.
ReplyDeleteThe pedophile gets to have stripped sunlight for awhile longe.
ReplyDeleteSwiss court keeps Polanski in jail, rejects bail
Roman Polanski's three decades as a fugitive are coming back to haunt him.
Noting his previous escape from U.S. authorities, Switzerland's top criminal court on Tuesday rejected Polanski's appeal to be released from prison because of the "high" risk that the 76-year-old director would try to flee again.
Awoooooooooooooooooo!
ReplyDeleteNo. Mr. Wolf has never cleaned up anything in his whole life!
Lots to finish a'fore quittin' time. Later.
ReplyDeleteCHAMPAIGN, Ill. – University of Illinois Chancellor Richard Herman resigned Tuesday following months of pressure after reports that the school admitted politically connected applicants over more qualified ones at its Urbana-Champaign campus.
ReplyDeleteMore...
Oops.
A little back-peddling after getting the big FUCK YOU from Russia?
ReplyDelete"Poland, smarting after President Barack Obama announced last month that he would scrap Bush-era plans to deploy an antiballistic missile system in Eastern Europe, will accept an offer to host parts of a new, more mobile missile defense system, Polish officials said Tuesday."
Good Afternoon C2ers. Going back to the topic. No matter how much I would love to say keep the names private, I can't. If this was a petition that was signed by a bunch of moonbats I would be jumping up and down for the names to be released. Once you sign a petition it has to be public knowledge. No double standards.
ReplyDeleteOccasional Reader said...
ReplyDelete"BZ's probably got him out in the woodshed for a spanking even as we speak."
Whatever turns him on, eh?
It would be nice if PK dropped by here too. Good man he is.
Afternoon, all. Thanks to whomever found that Human Rights Watch guy's editorial at the NYT (!). I posted it at my denomination's 'social justice' (spit) Middle East Peace blog. I think I can hear their little heads exploding now...
ReplyDeleteRunning Bare said...
ReplyDeleteCHAMPAIGN, Ill. – University of Illinois Chancellor Richard Herman resigned Tuesday following months of pressure after reports that the school admitted politically connected applicants over more qualified ones at its Urbana-Champaign campus.
More...
Oops.
No problems with with disclosing petition signatures in IL ........
Origin of Specious said...
ReplyDeleteBill Whittle has a great comment up on Obama's foreign policy debacle...
http://www.pjtv.com/video/Afterburner_with_Bill_Whittle/Warmongers_or_Peacemakers%3A_Who_Will_Be_Responsible_for_Scorching_the_Earth%3F/2591/
Good for you Spenser!
ReplyDeleteAnyone know what "P & L" means in the closing of a letter?
ReplyDeleteOrigin, the plan was to use sea-based missile interceptors in Poland, once the land-based ones were canceled. This was covered in an AvLeak article, but not by the MSM.
ReplyDeleteThe SM-3 system would be deployable earlier than the land-based system, and a more advanced system could be available before the land-based one was ready. Building the silos takes time. The land based missiles are also over 7 times the price of the SM-3's
redstateredneck said...
ReplyDeleteDoes anybody want to check all these employment references for me? I swear...1 truckdriver = 10 jobs in 10 years.
No, thank you. I've had that task before in a previous career and it's not fun. The sheer number of them tells you something right off the bat. Unless your company requires you to check all of them, try the most recent and then randomly sample 2 or 3 more and you'll probably get the picture.
@Spenser: "social justice" in my book is a term like "people's republic" or "people's democracy" or for that matter "Holy Roman Empire" (not holy, not Roman, and not an empire).
ReplyDeleteBeer Drinking Victory Monkey said...
ReplyDeleteWas the letter from a hippie? Maybe "Peace and Love"?
BDVM: Normally it means profit and loss. Maybe peace and love? Popcorn and lemonade? Punks and losers?
ReplyDeleteBeer Drinking Victory Monkey said...
ReplyDeleteAnyone know what "P & L" means in the closing of a letter?
Profit and Loss? :)))
Finally Free said...
ReplyDeleteSocial Justice
Economic Justice
Peace and Prosperity
All of 'em make me hack up a hairball.
LOL, CC you need to run a poll to find out how many of us dudes see a boxing glove in that image. Seriously, it was the first thing that came to my mind when I first saw it.
ReplyDeleteOctober 20, 2009 12:15 PM
Oh, turn, that's even better when you think about it - sort of a visual double entendre...or something like that.
Erik The Red said...
ReplyDeleteBeer Drinking Victory Monkey said...
Anyone know what "P & L" means in the closing of a letter?
Profit and Loss? :)))
This the Obama era, Profit & Earnings........
It was Peace & Love. But I like Popcorn & Lemonade better.
ReplyDeleteBDVM
ReplyDeletePeace & Love.
Dopp
ReplyDeleteI have to verify ten years and this is very typical of truck drivers. If it were up to me anyone with this many would go in file 13, but it's not up to me.
On the thread subject: ideally I believe the signatories should be public in the interest of transparency. However, in today's environment this would, for some petitions, cause people that back them to lose their livelihood or worse.
ReplyDeleteFrom a legal point of view, the names need to be accessible to the public.
ReplyDeleteThat said, the "chilling" argument has merits insofar as the intent of the petitioners is to intimidate the opposition.
"Homophobia" isn't a crime, but any opposition to the radical homosexual agenda is treated as if it were a crime in the court of "public" opinion. And anyone who is "tried" and "convicted" in that venue has no room for appeal and no possibility for offering a defense once the accusation is made.
The strategy of the left is the strategy of witch hunting.
FF -- that's why if someone does suffer, they should be able to sue.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that if the courts are completely dominated by leftards, there is no chance for success.
The radicals are within striking distance of completely taking over by shutting off legal recourse for those who might dissent.
Finally Free said...
ReplyDeleteOn the thread subject: ideally I believe the signatories should be public in the interest of transparency. However, in today's environment this would, for some petitions, cause people that back them to lose their livelihood or worse.
Ok so where do you draw the line? If it is a petition to ban the US Flag from flying at public schools would you also want the names to not be released? No double standards here. That is for the left. They signed a paper that we all know is not private and that our names may or will be released.
Isn't a ballot measure essential a vote, which is supposed to be secret? That seems to be different from signing a petition to be sent to the President, or your local Congressman.
ReplyDeleteErik: That is why you cannot have a line. One law for all people.
ReplyDeleteBDVM: It was a petition or petitions that led to the ballot initiative they want released, not the actual votes on the initiative itself.
Lucius Septimius said...
ReplyDeleteFF -- that's why if someone does suffer, they should be able to sue.
The problem is that if the courts are completely dominated by leftards, there is no chance for success.
The radicals are within striking distance of completely taking over by shutting off legal recourse for those who might dissent.
It would be nice to be able to invoke the "hate crime" laws which the Left has been busily passing and obtain criminal prosecution of those who would intimidate the signers of a petition.
But detecting harassers is difficult even in cases of hit-and-run vandalism, and far more so when it comes to whispering campaigns, pressure to fire someone, online smears, and the like, and proving charges more difficult still.
Worse, "hate crime" laws have a tendency to run only one way, and applying them against members of an officially-designated "victim group" is all but impossible.
James Carville thinks conservatives are aliens
ReplyDeleteTime for your anal probe, Jimmie. And this time, I think we'll dispense with the KY.
Beer Drinking Victory Monkey said...
ReplyDeleteIsn't a ballot measure essential a vote, which is supposed to be secret? That seems to be different from signing a petition to be sent to the President, or your local Congressman.
In WA it's kind of half way.
A petition to a politician has no weight, other than that of opinion. In WA Referenda and Initiatives are a method for people to participate in more direct democracy.
When enough registered voters sign, the matter goes to a full vote at the next election. After 2 years the legislature can modify laws put in place directly by the people.
OT: On the one hand, The only thing more stupid than picking a fight with people who buy ink by the barrel is to pick a fight with people that don't even have to buy ink.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, an Instapundit reader argues: "The criticism of Fox is not aimed at Fox. It is aimed at liberal editors, and is intended to quarantine the dramatic news being uncovered by right-of-center media. If the liberal editors accept the criticism, they’ll feel good about hiding right-of-center news stories from busy, non-political, swing-voting Americans."
Speaking of privacy rights, I'm pro-life but this is just wrong:
ReplyDeleteNew Oklahoma Abortion Law Violates Patient Privacy, Critics Charge
The law, which will take effect on Nov. 1, compels the Oklahoma Department of Health to publish data online on all abortion patients -- including the woman's race, marital status, financial circumstances, years of education, number of previous pregnancies, and her reason for seeking the abortion. Doctors who fail to provide such information will be criminally penalized and stripped of their medical licenses.
doppelganglander said...
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of privacy rights, I'm pro-life but this is just wrong:
The law, which will take effect on Nov. 1, compels the Oklahoma Department of Health to publish data online on all abortion patients -- including the woman's race, marital status, financial circumstances, years of education, number of previous pregnancies, and her reason for seeking the abortion. Doctors who fail to provide such information will be criminally penalized and stripped of their medical licenses.
I agree. I am also pro-life but this is wrong.
I just want to say I love this thread - what a great discussion you all are having. Interesting stuff.
ReplyDeleteYou guys totally make this place.
OT again: this interesting article in RealClearPolitics argues that the real focus of political activity today is shifting from the national and state party organizations to the local organizations.
ReplyDeleteWorse, "hate crime" laws have a tendency to run only one way, and applying them against members of an officially-designated "victim group" is all but impossible.
ReplyDeleteWhich, of course, was the point.
I am more and more convinced that what leftists aim at in their efforts to create a "class-less" society is, in fact, a society of orders, where social hierarchies are legal categories based on non-economic, but rather, political and ideological grounds.
Hate crime legislation, along with AA, and various other efforts to ensure "equality" are, in fact, means of defining communities of interest and giving them special legal privileges not granted to the rest of society.
In feudal law, social standing is defined in terms of a hierarchy of rights and privileges granted to individuals on account of their birth and relationship to the crown. Replace crown with "party-state" and "birth" with "race and gender" and you have the leftist image.
Why don't we just admit it -- the leftists are not "progressive" but reactionary. Where they want to "progress" to is the good old days where the was no social mobility, no freedom, no legal protection, but only the absolute and irrestible power of the king. And they all think they should be kings.
Lucius Septimius said...
ReplyDeleteJames Carville thinks conservatives are aliens
He looks like that he thinks we're the aliens?
He looks like that he thinks we're the aliens?
ReplyDeleteAndromedans think all of us Milky Way types are aliens.
Bigots.
Lucius Septimius said...
ReplyDeleteJames Carville thinks conservatives are aliens
Well C2 does have it's resident green man. Hey DEZ come out and play. :)))
@doppelganglander: I am also pro-life, but.. publishing names of abortees? Not just statistics? Actual names?
ReplyDeleteAsinine. I take that back: an ass would know better.
Lucius: You have encapsulated in part why I say that "human rights"--which are special rights granted by the government to address the grievances of the favored--are antithetical to liberty safeguarded by civil rights that limit government under the rule of law.
ReplyDeleteWe have had something close to 40 years in which "human rights" have been falsely passed off as being akin to "civil rights," but in reality the two flow from completely different views of the world, of government, and of the citizen's role.
I would add, Lucius, that the "progressive" belief that everyone is going to be a king once the revolution comes is as fatuous as all those people who believe that they were Cleopatra in a former life. If ol' Cleo had had that many personalities inhabiting her brief span, she'd have been gibbering like a lunatic the entire time, her head revolving at top speed.
ReplyDelete@Lucius: "the leftists are not "progressive" but reactionary."
ReplyDeleteI agree with that and every other word you wrote. Spot on.
I will have you know that I was Cleopatra AND Marie of Roumania as well.
ReplyDeleteI'm conflicted.
If you were Marie of Roumania, at least you know good pastrami.
ReplyDeletedoppelganger, I think that law violates HUIPAA, so it will result in some interesting court cases, to say the least.
ReplyDeleteI'm a bad, bad person. Skippy has a post you've got to see:
ReplyDeletehttp://skippyslist.com/2009/10/16/the-shining-is-a-movie-about-how-kubrick-faked-the-moon-landing/#more-2581
He leads you to the crazy. It's good crazy. Just the thing for a Tuesday afternoon.
Hey Dopple, are you still here? Your story is scary to this Pro-Life Dad, but I have to read that link to that story because your list of info to be published does not mention names or addresses, correct? It looks like statistical data for research.
ReplyDeleteDriving by...
ReplyDeletebuzzsaw:
Worse, "hate crime" laws have a tendency to run only one way,
Illustration by anecdote: About 8 or 9 years ago, I went to a Baltimore Orioles game with some friends, among whom were two US ADAs for DC. (A-OK?) Over some beers pre-game, we started talking about the idea of "hate crimes" legislation, with the ADAs (neither of whom I would describe as hard-left) being firmly in favor of them. They were convinced that we needed laws to protect people against... well, an alleged rash of "hate" crimes being perpetrated against black people and gays, that somehow weren't being captured under the usual prohibitions against, you know, assault, and murder, and so forth. I asked, hypothetically: So if at some point I'm assaulted by young black men in the streets of DC, who scream racial slurs at me, they'd be prosecuted under these laws, too, right? Without missing a beat, one of the two said, "no, because in that case you'd just have been a... target of opportunity", while the other ADA nodded.
Huh?
Roll that concept around in your mind a bit. (And be sure to savor the implicit anti-BLACK racism contained in it... apparently, we can't reasonably expect black people not to participate in violent assaults against members of other races, see... it's just natural, I guess!... feh.)
Finally Free said...
ReplyDelete@doppelganglander: I am also pro-life, but.. publishing names of abortees? Not just statistics? Actual names?
Asinine. I take that back: an ass would know better.
Publishing everything but the names of women who seek abortions. As the article points out, it won't be hard to figure out who's who in a small town.
Kosh's Shadow: I'm not knowledgeable about HIPAA but that sounds right.
doppelganglander said...
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of privacy rights, I'm pro-life but this is just wrong:
New Oklahoma Abortion Law Violates Patient Privacy, Critics Charge
The law is completely frickking out to lunch, and it will be swatted down by the first Federal court to review it. Shame on the Oklahoma legislature for wasting the taxpayers' time and money like this.
buzzsawmonkey said...
ReplyDeleteReminds me of the scene in Bull Durham where Crash asks why everyone in a past life was someone famous, why not Joe Schmoe.
LOL!
Speaking of privacy rights, I'm pro-life but this is just wrong:
ReplyDeleteNew Oklahoma Abortion Law Violates Patient Privacy, Critics Charge
The law, which will take effect on Nov. 1, compels the Oklahoma Department of Health to publish data online on all abortion patients -- including the woman's race, marital status, financial circumstances, years of education, number of previous pregnancies, and her reason for seeking the abortion. Doctors who fail to provide such information will be criminally penalized and stripped of their medical licenses.
Pro-life and anti-abortion... what ever phrase works.
That goes way too far.
two US ADAs for DC.
ReplyDeleteGood grief. Make that "two AUSAs". Gah.
(Assistant US Attorneys)
I've been to the Stanley Hotel in Estes Park, Co. It was the inspiration for the hotel in the movie the Shining. Beautiful place.
ReplyDeleteWho the fuck is going to treat the sick? After Obambicare and this abortion law there will be no doctors left.
ReplyDeleteSpenser with an S: Right, no names, but I think every one in Hick County, population 2437, will be able to figure out who the 24-year-old divorced white female with one previous pregnancy is. I'd like to see fewer abortions, too, but this is not the way to go about it.
ReplyDeleteYes, if there are any id tags at all, even town or city the abortion occurred in, it won't see the light of day. If the report is going to say 512 women had abortions in OK last year and x% were married and their mean income was... that kind of stuff is done quite often. IF all id tags are removed.
ReplyDeleteBeautiful place.
ReplyDeleteDid you want to stay there and play, turn?
Forever...
...and ever...
... and ever?
/that movie scared the bejeebus out of me
So if at some point I'm assaulted by young black men in the streets of DC, who scream racial slurs at me, they'd be prosecuted under these laws, too, right?
ReplyDeleteOf course not, that's called repartations.
I've never set foot on a Big Wheel again, since I saw "The Shining".
ReplyDelete/
Or, I was following Dianna's link to the skippy's list story ... sorry that was sort of out of context. Yes it was a scarry movie ... heeers Johnny!
ReplyDeleteturn said...
ReplyDeleteI've been to the Stanley Hotel in Estes Park, Co. It was the inspiration for the hotel in the movie the Shining. Beautiful place.
Exterior shots in the movie were made at Timberline Lodge on Mt. Hood, OR.
Last time I was Estes Park an elderly couple in period costume were crusing town on a Stanley Steamer.
Occasional Reader said...
ReplyDeleteI've never set foot on a Big Wheel again, since I saw "The Shining".
/
I know I have NEVER since accepted any invitations into clawfoot bathtubs with a hot naked lonely babe in a hotel room that I just stumbled into.
/even though my date DID leap into my lap screaming ... two-fer!
turn said...
ReplyDeleteI've been to the Stanley Hotel in Estes Park, Co. It was the inspiration for the hotel in the movie the Shining. Beautiful place.
Kosh's Shadow says -
Did you meet the groundskeeper?
It's nobody's damned business, referencing the referendum ruling AND the stupid Oklahoma proposal.
ReplyDeleteJCM, like I said, the odd part was these two AUSAs were NOT moonbats. They were, I'd say, centrist Democrat in their politics. But it seemed utterly *natural* to them that "hate crimes" laws were only meant to apply to crimes committed by white, straight males. (And they had a hard time coming up with specific examples of this terrible white, straight male "hate" crime wave, that was not otherwise being prosecuted under good ol' laws against assault and the like; they eventually resorted to a lame hypothetical of an evil white, straight male who goes around every day punching a black or gay EXACTLY ONCE, then repeating the next day. Yep, that happens all the time, right?)
ReplyDeleteKosh's Shadow said...
ReplyDeleteDid you meet the groundskeeper?
Yeah, but his name was Willie, and he said I had the "Shinning".
/
JCM, For real? IIRC they have a caravan that goes there every year. Those cars were so far ahead of their time.
ReplyDeleteI'm not allowed to chop through the bedroom door when me and the lady are fighting anymore. I always end up sleeping on the couch. :(
ReplyDeleteDid you meet the groundskeeper?
ReplyDeleteYeah, but I just shined him on ...
/even though my date DID leap into my lap screaming
ReplyDeleteOLT, are you sure that "scream" wasn't just the air escaping from the rupture in the inflation valve?
/
Dianna
ReplyDeleteThat was different!
turn said...
ReplyDeleteJCM, For real? IIRC they have a caravan that goes there every year. Those cars were so far ahead of their time.
It was soooo cool, chuff-chuff-chuff, wasn't a bunch of them, just the one. But it was a show stopper, a one car parade, everyone stopped looked and waved.
Dianna -- what a mess of an article. One wouldn't even know where to begin. I liked this comment, though:
ReplyDeleteThere is much more in this film than can be discussed here. I am sure that much more will be discovered.
Sure -- go off your meds again for a couple of weeks and I'm sure you'll get more info.